TRAVELLER Digest 593

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Infantry is NOT useless... by "Upton, Django" <DUpton@vtrnntov.telecom.com.au>
  2) USL ships and stuff by Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>
  3) ATTN: Andy Lilly by Mark Fletcher <mf1@st-andrews.ac.uk>
  4) TNE Attribute Modification by "John A. King" <jking@interaccess.com>
  5) Re: TNE Attribute Modification by Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
  6) RE: why even have a timeline at all? by David Elrick <Dave.Elrick@ps.co.uk>
  7) RE: Vargr by David Elrick <Dave.Elrick@ps.co.uk>
  8) GDWs demise, Traveller's resurrection? by stedee@auto-trol.com (Steve Deemer)
  9) Re: TRAVELLER digest 591 by Will  Richards <richarwt@jtasc.acom.mil>
 10) Roleplaying Vargr by Christopher_Griffen_at_DMC-SJ3@dmcwave.com (Christopher Griffen)
 11) Re: Infantry is NOT uselsss by "David J. Golden" <goldendj@whip.com>
 12) Re: USL ships and stuff by "David J. Golden" <goldendj@whip.com>
 13) drones vs infantry and tanks by bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
 14) Re: TRAVELLER digest 591 by "David J. Golden" <goldendj@whip.com>
 15) Re: Infantry is NOT useless by George Herbert <gherbert@crl.com>
 16) Re: [T590] Vargr Questions by jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
 17) The RICE Archives are on-line! by jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Feb 96 17:05:00 EST
From: "Upton, Django" <DUpton@vtrnntov.telecom.com.au>
To: "'TML'" <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Re: Infantry is NOT useless...
Message-ID: <311FFF53@msmailv0.telecom.com.au>


 -------------------------------------
Christopher_Griffen_at_DMC-SJ3@dmcwave.com (Christopher Griffen)

Responding to Bri@teleport...

>> I've noticed something... In TNE, infantry is useless.
 It can only hurt other infantry. So this thought line continues, and you
come to the conclusion of why not just make all tank and drone units?
 Against the pathetic vehicles in the RCVG, infantry can do something
with it's missiles(but the tanks can just fly over them:P), but against a
properly armourd TL-15 vehicle(av410 all around), infantry cannot hurt
them.<<

It's already that way.  Infantry in Traveller is useful for the same thing
infantry has been useful for since time immemorial:  holding land.  No
cordone
of starships or tank squadron or whatever can do what a large fighting force
can
do:  hold land.  It takes the tanks, planes, starships, etc. _to_ take the
land,
but the infantry must then hold it.

 --Chris
 ----------------------------------
 How would this infantry possibly defend against a tank or a drone?
 ----------------------------------

This problem again????

This is a problem that has existed in all versions of trav.
Most infantry is used in close terrain where civilians etc must be dealt
with as well.

In CT the imperial infantry was equipped with tacnukes for dealing with
tanks that other weapons couldn't.

Most of the actual firepower of infantry units is derived from their
supporting artillery anyway.

Consider a unit of Imperial marines or jump troops equipped with chamelon
surfaced battledress, fusion guns, tacnukes and grav belts. Fireteam leaders
carry lasers and additional commo/sensor/ecm gear and spot for artillery and
ortillery.
Mechanised units are carried around in MICV's equipped with rapid fire
fusion guns and tacnukes.
The troopers cost about 1.5 MCr, the tacnukes only tens or hundreds of
kCr.....

Plenty of firepower to there I would think!

Django.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 21:24:12 +1100 (EST)
From: Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: USL ships and stuff
Message-ID: <199602121024.VAA12731@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>

Well, no, I don't think that the only worthwhile campaigns are run by me.
However, and lets not get into a flame war over this again, TNE was so
wonderful that GDW is still in existence, not!

Look, Frank Chadwick is a great *wargame* designer ... I've got all his
Command Decision stuff (1st *and* 2nd Edition) and a fair few of his
boardgames as well, and I enjoy them thoroughly. I also enjoyed TW:2000
for what it was, a combat "role playing" game ... with the emphasis on
the *combat*. However, look at his failures ... Space 1889 (I really liked
this, but the 1d6 based system *obviously* based on miniatures wargames
rules, as confirmed when he released the miniatures combat rules!) sank
(and I hope Steve Jackson picks it up, at least he can design *role playing*
games ... perhaps not super-wonderful, but not at all shabby!); Traveller
2300/2300 AD sank (all you could really do was *boring* exploration a la
the infamous "Energy Curve" or kill Kafers); Dark Conspiracy ... neat idea
(I really liked the concept), but it was really Call of Cthulhu with guns
but no brains ... Shub-Niggurath appears - no probs! Just hit it with a few
LAW rockers!; and TNE went the same way. Sorry, but look at the supplements
for it, most are combat oriented. All the real roleplayers want *roleplaying*
stuff, not combat stuff. OK, gearheads like you liked it ... but it wasn't
enough to save the company, after all, was it? And the Trading Card caused
slump in the RPG industry isn't valid, as all the other dogs died pre-TC
games.

Sure, if they don't go into superdetail, they'll lose you. But you weren't
enough to save TNE and GDW anyway -- the loss of confirmed roleplayers was
hat put the final nail in its coffin. I have most of the CTrav stuff (it
wasn't always easy to get in Oz, and being posted in the country for 3 years
in its heyday meant that I missed a lot), I have most of the MTrav stuff
(excepting some of the DGP stuff, because DGP had truly *terrible* distbn
in Oz) and some of the later MTrav stuff from GDW which seems to have been
almost unavailable *anywhere*; I have TNE Base Rules, FF&S, RefCol Equipment,
and the Regency Combat Vehicle Guide (which I regret buying). I did not buy
any of the RefCol books other than the equipment guide -- too combat
oriented and, being based on Virus, too ridiculous; I didn't buy the Regency
Manual for much the same sort of reasons.

*Blunt Hairpins* and *CattleCarriers* (the boardgames) I regard as entirely
non-canon as they have HePlaR. Fine. *You* like it. Wonderful. If Frank
Chadwick wanted to design a Space Boardgame with reaction style thrusters,
I can live with it ... I'd probably have even *bought* it *if* it had been
non Traveller. But to argue that Thruster Plates, good enough for the whole
what, 15 years to date in 1992, were suddenly "unrealistic" compared to
HePlaR ... which is *also* admitted to be unrealistic! ... is like saying
being a little bit pregnant is worse than being a little bit pregnant! As
for Thruster Platers being "less believable" than HePlaR, well, people had
accepted then for 15 years without demur! In any case, after the absolute
*Fantasy* (and I wouldn't even dignify it with a "science" in front of it)
of *Virus*, it was garbage to expect us to accept the massive change from
Thruster Plates to HePlaR.

Fine, you liked the changes. I've been with Traveller for the long haul, since
1977 ... one of the reasons we designed Space Opera was because we wanted to
do it "right" (sincere admiration!) ... and I've bought damn near everything
of CTRav and MTrav that was available. But TNE was a joke, and, so it seems
from the fact that GDW is no longer with us, it was one that too many people
like myself didn't find funny at all. In any case, it sounds as if MM is
going back to CTrav/MTrav for the "new" traveller ... or so the material
on the list seems to indicate ... so he may well not agree with you either.

What it boils down to, I suppose, is that we'll have to agree to disagree?!

Phil


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 11:11:26 +0000 (GMT)
From: Mark Fletcher <mf1@st-andrews.ac.uk>
To: Traveller <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: ATTN: Andy Lilly
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960212110910.20836A-100000@pasta>

Andy,

Ive lost your E-mail address so this is the only way I can get in touch
with you. My apologies to the other members of the list. Andy, let me
know when you receive the stuff I sent off to you. It was sent off last
Monday, but by second class post :(

Thanks,

Mark.


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 08:59:23 -0600
From: "John A. King" <jking@interaccess.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: TNE Attribute Modification
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960212145923.00677ecc@pop.interaccess.com>

This question has probably already been asked and answered, but as I
mentioned before, I'm new, so here goes:

What is the mechanism for a character to increase his/her attributes during
generation in TNE? In CT and MT, you had terms where you would get a "skill"
of, say, "+1 Str" or something. It seems to me that something like this was
alluded to in TNE, but I can't find any specific rules.

I am co-GMing a campaign starting soon, I would like to know if anyone out
there has an answer. My inclination is to allow any player to "trade in" one
skill point for one attribute point, but if there are any ideas (or
citations in the rules I missed), I would be grateful to hear them.

Thanks,
John A. King
jking @interaccess.com

"Scientists are Peeping Toms at the keyhole of eternity."
- Arthur Koestler


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 10:21:04 -0500
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TNE Attribute Modification
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960212152104.00704e94@central.keywest.mpgn.com>

At 09:53 AM 2/12/96 -0500, you wrote:
>What is the mechanism for a character to increase his/her attributes during
>generation in TNE? In CT and MT, you had terms where you would get a "skill"
>of, say, "+1 Str" or something. It seems to me that something like this was
>alluded to in TNE, but I can't find any specific rules.

Page 27: Increasing Attributes

Basically each character has a secondary activity that they can take each
term. Some careers have none, some have two.  The player can opt to improve
a stat with a 2D6 roll of 8+ (DM +1 per willpower level) the stat is raised.
There is a +2 level increase ceiling (pg 20)  This applies to STR, AGL, CON,
INT, EDU and CHR.

Rob
--
Rob Miracle (rwm@TanSoft.com)| GCS d-->--- !H s:++ !g !p au+ a34 w+ !v C++>++++
Tantalus Inc.  Key West, FL  | UU++++$ P--- L+ 3 E--- N+++ K-  W+ M-- V-- -po+
"You have a problem?  I have | Y-- t++ 5>++ jx R+++ G'''' tv+++ b D B- e++ u**
a plan!" -- Anton Devious    | h---- f r+++ n---- y++++


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Feb 96 13:32:00 PST
From: David Elrick <Dave.Elrick@ps.co.uk>
To: "traveller%mpgn.com" <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: RE: why even have a timeline at all?
Message-ID: <311FC9AA@pc136>

Will  Richards <richarwt@jtasc.acom.mil> said:

>   Why even have a time line associated with the new rules at all?
<snip>
>   Besides CT was a large success without having any kind of story
>associated with it other than the blerb about Jamison (captain of the
>beowulf).

I assume someone else has already answered this, but here goes anyway.

Classic Traveller was issued in 1977 at a time when there were less than a
dozen RPGs available - and only one had any kind of detailed background
(Chivalry & Sorcery).

In the case of the sword & sorcery games such as D&D and T&T, background
really didn't matter - the entire world consisted of lots of dungeons and a
pub, where the survivors went to divvy up the loot.

When CT came out, it's only direct [sf] competitors were: Metamorphosis
Alpha and Space Opera. Metamorphosis Alpha was really only a giant dungeon
(albiet inside a generation ship) and didn't really need any background
since, if you found out it was a generation ship, the game was effectively
over anyway.

Both SO and CT gave the referees the necessary details to generate their own
background (I don't know about anyone else, but my players hung around my
one subsector until well after GDW issued any information about the
Imperium).

None of the games available at that time had much background, and referees
routinely made snap judgements where something wasn't covered by the rules
(this wasn't always a good thing as the famous 'I disbelieve this illusion'
debate proved).

Fortunately or unfortunately, times have moved on. Roleplaying appeals to a
much wider market which mostly expects to be able to pick up a game and play
it straight away, with no generating your game world/background and little
or no having to make snap judgements where the rules don't cover something
(you only have to look at the kind of questions which appear in the 'Sage
Lore' column in Dragon to see that!).

A 'standard' background is also useful to someone like me who routinely runs
demo and participation games at shows. It allows people to sit down and join
in directly, without a great deal of explanation. In fact, this is the only
reason why I still use the Virus in any of my Traveller games (although I
have made some changes to the background - I still cannot accept the speed
with which Virus spread through known space).

What it comes down to is: a rules set without a background is just a
wargame. With a background, it *can* be something more (although some
so-called RPGs are just wargames - look at anything by Leading Edge for a
start).

To appeal to new roleplayers - and God knows, they're thin enough on the
ground these days - Traveller IV [Traveller: Voyages was just my little joke
 - please Marc, no!] has to be complete and playable out of the box (book,
tablets etched with letters of fire, whatever). Traveller without a
background would die on the vine faster than anything predicted by others on
this list.

Kind Regards

Dave Elrick

 ------------------------------------------------------
"Och, Captain. Have ye come to maltreat ma bonny engines for another five
years?"

     Alleged out-take from Star Trek V

 ------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Feb 96 13:36:00 PST
From: David Elrick <Dave.Elrick@ps.co.uk>
To: "traveller%mpgn.com" <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: RE: Vargr
Message-ID: <311FCBF0@pc136>



fredm@datasync.com (Paul Walker) asked about Vargr.

<some stuff snipped>
> The Vargr in this campaign >(as I have it planned thus far) is a loyal
> companion to the leader of the PC >group.  It would detract from the
> campaign to constantly worry about CHR issues. >Is this possible, or is
the
> CHR "battle" of the Vargr a instinctive response?

Although the Vargr would always be aware of the relative charismas of the
group in relation to his own (such awareness being instinctual), he would
see the charisma of the members of the human group (including himself) as
being relatively static.

Charisma within the group, and the Vargr's place in the group, would only
become an issue in fairly extreme circumstances (the death of the PC leader,
for example).

However, the Vargr's charisma would be very important if the group were
dealing with a Vargr group.

Hope that helps

Kind Regards

Dave Elrick

 ------------------------------------
"Some men have taken seeds of hope - and planted fields of hate."

19:01 [GMT] 9th February 1996.
 ------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Feb 96 09:42:18 MST
From: stedee@auto-trol.com (Steve Deemer)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: GDWs demise, Traveller's resurrection?
Message-ID: <9602121642.AA01176@stedee.YP.attc>


In all the smoke and confusion right now, does anyone have any information
on the status of the Traveller novels? I have the first of what was
supposed to be a trilogy, I'd heard the second was released but haven't
seen it. Without a publisher, are the novels history? Who owns the
copyright now?

Steve Deemer
stedee@auto-trol.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 11:58:19 -0500
From: Will  Richards <richarwt@jtasc.acom.mil>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 591
Message-ID: <2.2.16.19960212165819.32bfe7ec@137.246.1.196>

At 12:57 PM 2/11/96 -0500, you wrote:

>>You know the thing that *really* pissed me off about FF&S (I was *already*
>>pissed off by HePlaR replacing 15 years worth of Thruster Plates and changing
>>*every* important factor about Space Travel and Space Combat)? It was the
>>inclusion of *non-Traveller* tech to pad it out. I don't *care* about 2300AD
>>stutterwarps, nor do I want Dean Drives or Subspace Sensors. I wanted standard
>
>        Congratulations. _You_ don't want them. Others did, and have used
>them. Are you saying that because it's not what _you_ want, nobody else
>should either?
>
>>Jump Drives, Maneuver Drives, Sensors and the details needed to work with
>>them. Even the inclusion of tech of levels higher than max Imperial (16+) such
>>as Matter Transmitters and the like) I regarded as a waste of space. It was
>>never going to appear as something the players would interact with as more
than
>>"passengers" in a deus ex machina in any campaign I ran, so design parameters
>>were pointless to give!
>
>        And, of course, there are no worthwhile campaigns not run by you ...
> ___________________________________________________________________
>  Dave Golden                              PGP Public Key available
>  goldendj@whip.com        http://www.whip.com/~goldendj/index.html

Hey David where you the one who told me and other people to stop shouting
other people down??

Why then are you allowed to do so? Phillip McGregor had some points to make
and you made some good critical answers to them. And that was ok, but then
the last thing you did was to tell the guy and every one else on the net
that he has never produced any thing worth while. Who are you to say such a
thing?

Grow up. And learn some manners.

By the way FF&S as well as TNE where not writen at all by Marc Miller, my
guess is that FF&S will have little to do with TRAV mk4. But this is just a
guess.

Will



------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 09:36:50 -0800
From: Christopher_Griffen_at_DMC-SJ3@dmcwave.com (Christopher Griffen)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Roleplaying Vargr
Message-ID: <11f7c320@MailXFER.DMCWAVE.COM>

Responding to Charles Collin:

>>I've always played Vargr with the following rule in mind: "Nothing is
consistent, including inconsistency".  What I mean by this is that an
individual Vargr, or even a whole Vargr world, need not follow the
stereotypical chaotic behaviour pattern considered typical of them.<<

That's a good point and so is the rest of your argument, but I think letting the
player off by saying, "Just act like a human and we'll just suppose that's the
type of quirky Vargr you are," is a bit of a cop out.  I don't want to dictate
how other refs should run their campaigns, but playing aliens and trying to
emulate at least a portion of their unique personalities should be part of the
challenge.

Yes, there will be Vargr who are brought up in human society that will emulate
humans to a certain extent, but there are some things that are more 'nature'
than 'nurture' in all of us.  Some things are more instinctual for Vargr and
could not easily be extricated from their personalities no matter how much
exposure to human culture they've had.

In my current campaign, the players are a group of Denebi mercenaries, including
several NPC Vargr.  The 'top dog' (sorry!) is a sergeant named Tserok who has
worked long and hard to cement his position among the Vargr in the ranks as
"grand champion most-charismatic vargr."  Just recently, a player in the group
introduced a new character:  a Denebi Vargr cavalry officer.  The first thing
that happened was the NPC challenged him and subtly belittled him in front of
the rest of the platoon.

This sort of subtle infighting should be second nature to those Vargr who have
high charisma scores.  Humans may perceive this as antagonistic behavior, but in
truth it's the bread and butter of Vargr society.  Striving for the top is what
makes them a successful starfaring race.  Vargr of lower charisma probably
wouldn't even try to compete; they'd just accept their roles and submit more or
less to the will of more charismatic people.

The above situation and other expressions of what makes Vargr unique offers
great roleplaying potential for a player to slip into his role and explore what
being a Vargr is all about.

--Chris

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 10:58:59 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@whip.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Infantry is NOT uselsss
Message-ID: <1.5.4b11.32.19960212165859.006691fc@lynx.csn.net>

At 05:23 pm 2/11/96 -0500, you wrote:
>--(Jo mamma wrote)
>Why not plop Friend-or-Foe device in it.  Let it interogate it's target
>with a request for a passcode (pretty damn complex one).  Granted, that's
>not the tightest of security measures, but these things are supposed to
>work WITH flesh-and-blood troops, so there would probably be a human
>component in any situation that not everything is a target.
>--
> No, not the way I planned it.
> I'm gonna design a TL-15 tank(unmanned)(did anyone ever respond to that
>tank design 'contest' I posted.. don't think so). The only use of humans
>in this outfit would be a support, and as commanders(as in, if the
>robot/drone was confused as to weather or not to fire, it would ask a human)

        I think the whole point about what to do in a more _complex_
environment is what to do with _people_ ... are you going to put an IFF
device on every single human in a city you're conquering? How do you make
sure none of the resistance gets one? How are you going to hold and control
a city without infantry? Sure, you can nuke it if you don't want to keep it.
But you have to have folks on the ground.
 ___________________________________________________________________
  Dave Golden                              PGP Public Key available
  goldendj@whip.com        http://www.whip.com/~goldendj/index.html

  "Faith is not belief without knowledge.
   Faith is trust without reservation." -- unknown


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 10:59:02 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@whip.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: USL ships and stuff
Message-ID: <1.5.4b11.32.19960212165902.007395e8@lynx.csn.net>

At 05:26 am 2/12/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Well, no, I don't think that the only worthwhile campaigns are run by me.
>However, and lets not get into a flame war over this again, TNE was so
>wonderful that GDW is still in existence, not!

        GDW published TNE. GDW is out of business. DEMONSTRATE A CAUSAL
CONNECTION! You can't. For all that can be proven, MT and later TNE kept GDW
alive for just that much longer. There are simply too many factors involved,
including collectible trading cards and the general downturn in the gaming
market others have mentioned.

>Fine, you liked the changes. I've been with Traveller for the long haul, since
>1977 ... one of the reasons we designed Space Opera was because we wanted to
>do it "right" (sincere admiration!) ... and I've bought damn near everything
>of CTRav and MTrav that was available. But TNE was a joke, and, so it seems
>from the fact that GDW is no longer with us, it was one that too many people
>like myself didn't find funny at all. In any case, it sounds as if MM is
>going back to CTrav/MTrav for the "new" traveller ... or so the material
>on the list seems to indicate ... so he may well not agree with you either.

        from somebody on AOL: he plans on using them in a "highly updated
form." He's also already stated that TNE itself remains canon.
>
>What it boils down to, I suppose, is that we'll have to agree to disagree?!

        I'm not disagreeing with you. I support a "simple" design system.
Yes, I like a detailed system. Doesn't mean I want to deny you what you
want. Yet by saying "I don't like FF&S, therefore kill it, because nobody
else should like it either" you aren't willing to extend me the same
courtesy. Fine. I'll defend my position and yours, without expecting the
same back.

        Further beating of this dead horse should be done direct to me via
e-mail, as the rest of the list is apparently uninterested.
 ___________________________________________________________________
  Dave Golden                              PGP Public Key available
  goldendj@whip.com        http://www.whip.com/~goldendj/index.html

  "Faith is not belief without knowledge.
   Faith is trust without reservation." -- unknown


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 10:05:03 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: drones vs infantry and tanks
Message-ID: <9602121805.AA18302@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu>


Much of the advantage of Bri's drone vs. published tanks comes from the fact
that mass driver cannon are still so much better than fusion guns (does
a 3-cm mass driver really have a penetration of 504? Wheeg.) A tank with
the same gun could kill the drone, and victory would go to whichever one
shot/hit first; the drone gets an extra -1 DM to be hit, that's all,
but a tank could carry two or three slightly smaller guns with penetrations
in the 300 and perhaps higher ROFs. (Moral is mostly the paper-scissiors-stone
one that you can always design a custom weapon system to take out another
custom weapon system.)

One interesting option to make infantry more useful: allow fire control
systems on battle armor, that can apply their ranges and DMs to built-in
and carried weapons. (The fire control computer takes over the battle dress's
arms and aims the weapon accordingly.)

Bruce Macintosh
bmac@astro.ucla.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 11:12:27 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@whip.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 591
Message-ID: <1.5.4b11.32.19960212171227.007178e8@lynx.csn.net>

At 11:56 am 2/12/96 -0500, Will  Richard wrote:
>Hey David where you the one who told me and other people to stop shouting
>other people down??

        1. I don't immediately recall ever telling you or anybody else to
stop shouting people down
        2. I wasn't shouting him down. I was responding to his comments,
which IMO displayed an apparent disdain for what others wish to see in T4.
Perhaps I was excessively sarcastic, in which cas e I apologize to him.
        3. Why are you trying to shout me down for responding to him ...

>Why then are you allowed to do so? Phillip McGregor had some points to make
>and you made some good critical answers to them. And that was ok, but then
>the last thing you did was to tell the guy and every one else on the net
>that he has never produced any thing worth while. Who are you to say such a
>thing?

        I was not telling him he has never produced anything worthwhile. In
fact, I did not comment at all on on what he has produced. I commented on
what to me appeared to be an attitude that, since it wasn't worthwhile in
his campaigns, it shouldn't be worthwhile in anybody's campaigns. Once
again, I may have been a bit touchy and overreacted to make my point:

        *******************************************
        * Just because you don't use an aspect of *
        * the game doesn't mean it should be      *
        * eliminated; others may find that the    *
        * most interesting part! And if you can   *
        * get what you want (in this case a       *
        * simplified design system), why should   *
        * you be so bothered by the idea that     *
        * somebody else should get what they want *
        * (in this case a compatible detailed     *
        * design system)?
        *******************************************
>
>Grow up. And learn some manners.

        Thank you for your advice. (PS: This seems very definitely like an
ad-hominem attack intended to shout me down. You might want to follow your
own advice.)


>By the way FF&S as well as TNE where not writen at all by Marc Miller, my
>guess is that FF&S will have little to do with TRAV mk4. But this is just a
>guess.

        Perhaps. But even though TNE was not written by Mr. Miller, he has
stated it will remain part of Traveller. Whether he provides a detailed
design system a la FF&S remains yet to be seen.

        Further flames may be directed to me personally, to save the mailing
list.
 ___________________________________________________________________
  Dave Golden                              PGP Public Key available
  goldendj@whip.com        http://www.whip.com/~goldendj/index.html

  "Faith is not belief without knowledge.
   Faith is trust without reservation." -- unknown


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 10:56:56 -0800
From: George Herbert <gherbert@crl.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Infantry is NOT useless
Message-ID: <199602121856.AA08228@mail.crl.com>


From: "'Jomama' Charles Pratt" <tminus@u.washington.edu>
>> >  Sprite class TL-16 combat drone
>> > Total cost: MCr4.988
>> 5MCr is a bunch of money :-)
>
>For smart, mobile military tech, that's relatively low.  Consider that a
>top of the line laser guided bomb costs about a million dollars (like the
>one they used to plaster that bomb shelter in Iraq).  So, if the tactical
>value of this drone is high enough, that's a cheap price tag.

Umm, no, laser guided bombs run $3k to $12k except for the GBU-28(29?)
which they custom-built to take out those deep bunkers.

A few of the long range standoff precision guided munitions cost
in the neighborhood of $1m (SLAM).  Most of them are under $100k,
with a few over that (JSOW, a few others).  Laser guided bombs
are dirt cheap.  Even Maverick missiles are pretty cheap...

(Try making one in FF&S, it's roughly accurage in the $1-2 per Cr
translation range 8-)

-george william herbert
gherbert@crl.com


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Feb 96 18:28:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
To: TRAVELLER@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: [T590] Vargr Questions
Message-ID: <8BAA454.010006A551.uuout@execnet.com>


Rob Miracle (and just how often does he have to live up to _that_
name?) writes...

T::>At 02:41 PM 2/9/96 -0500, Paul asked something like:
 ::>    "Is it possible to have a Vargr who is not pack oriented?"

T::>I think so.  The Alien Books were written more to the culture of each alien
 ::>race.  Vargr society behaves like the book details, but an individual Vargr
 ::>does not have to.

 True.  In any sophont species, I think there's going to be a lot
 of variation.  Even in SF stories where the society was
 genetically identical (a world of clones, IOW), there was some
 individual variation, most likely due to differing life
 experiences.  Heck, even identical twins have differing life
 experiences starting at zero seconds after the mind is capable pf
 perceiving its surroundings - if nothing else, they occupy
 differing positions in spacetime.

T::>If you look at various Spinward Marches materials, they have many references
 ::>to the one lone Vargr (The Traveller Adventure for example).  Pack oriented
 ::>CHR fighting had little to do with any thing.  Your Vargr is in a Human
 ::>Society and will behave with Human tendancies.

 True, but with a distinctly Vargr cast to them - A lot of the
 "wolfy" traits of domesticated canines of all species are pretty
 conclusively believed to be genetically programmed.  It's
 reasonable to assume the same for the Vargr, who are, after all,
 essentially Terran canines.

 Incidentally, has anyone noticed that the Old Norse word for
 "wolf" is "vargr", and that the modern Scandinavian tongues use
 variations of that same word for the same purpose even today?  Is
 Marc Miller perhaps a linguist, even amateur?

T::>Run him like a human, just has cool looking fur.  Just dont make him "Go
 ::>Fetch".

 Not quite, IMO.  More like, "run him as a certain kind of human" -
 the kind of human who is no more or less certain of his
 _capabilities_ than "normal" (for a human), but who has a somewhat
 stronger drive to do things for superiors that will earn their
 approval (_not_ necessarily their respect), and to do things that
 will emphasize his dominance over his subordinates.  Expect him to
 play "political/social dominance" games with his "equals" until it
 is clearly shown just what the relative Charisma between them is.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
---
  OLXWin 1.00a  Chief Archivist, Regency Institute for Cultural Education





------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Feb 96 18:28:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: The RICE Archives are on-line!
Message-ID: <8BAA454.010006A552.uuout@execnet.com>


  To all those who have benefited from the data previously
  transmitted from the RICE Archives:

  Although the Regency Institute for Cultural Education is a
  quasi-governmental organization, we have been dependent on
  private funding to carry out the activities called for in our
  charter.  As a result, we have been somewhat limited in our
  ability to make the information in our archives readily
  available.

  This situation has been alleviated somewhat.  We have been using
  a private data service for our transmissions; this service has
  recently upgraded its capabilities with regards to allowing its
  clients to make information available (without upgrading the
  costs!).  Portions of our archives are now available directly on
  the Web, and as we are able to convert other information to a
  Web-acceptable format, more will become available.  We therefore
  invite researchers and travellers from all over the Regency, and
  the other Spinward States where Web access is available, to visit
  the Rice Archives On-Line.  The Uniform Resource Locator (URL) is
  http://www.execnet.com/~jeffz/travellr.html (note carefully the
  spelling!).

  Currently, the RICE information that is available is in a
  somewhat crude format; we will be working to improve the
  presentation as time and resources allow.  To this end, we are
  requesting that any previously published RICE Papers that do not
  currently appear in our archives be sent to the Chief Archivist
  under separate cover (mailto:jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com); RICE
  Papers published in the future on the Traveller's Mailing List
  will be captured and made available.  For the record, the RICE
  Papers currently available are those on RICE itself, Deneb,
  Emerald, Glisten, the Iper'mar Nomads, Menorb, Nutema,
  Persephone, and the Universal Extended Starport Profile.  The
  Glisten and UESP Papers have undergone recent revision; the
  revisions have not as yet been transmitted to the Traveller's
  Mailing List.

  We also would appreciate contributions of renderings, in GIF
  format, of planetary seals for planets for which RICE Papers have
  been published.  These may be sent to the Chief Archivist at the
  address above.

  We wish to thank those who have in the past assisted RICE in
  making this information available, and hope that they will
  continue to do so in the future.

                                       Jeff Zeitlin
                                       Chief Archivist, for

                                       The Board of Trustees of
                                          The Regency Institute
                                             for Cultural Education
---
  OLXWin 1.00a  Chief Archivist, Regency Institute for Cultural Education


------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 593
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